Curse

Knightsaber Sith · Dec 04, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

If you alternate the heroes you use; by the time you leave Kourna they'll all be atleast 18 (all the heroes you have upto that point anyway). If you just want to use the same heroes over and over and leave all the others at low lvl's; that's you're choice.

Belicosos Finos · Dec 04, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

I question whether you actually paid attention throughout your trek across Nightfall.

Each and every mission requires a certain hero, save for Tihark Orchard, Dasha Vestibule (they just give you Goren as an ally to keep alive), Gate of Madness and Abaddon's Gate. That's 16/20 missions that require you to bring a certain hero.

I think Dasha Vestibule requires Margrid in your party. As its the counterpart to Dzagonar Bastion mission (which requires Whispers).

freekedoutfish · Dec 04, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

I question whether you actually paid attention throughout your trek across Nightfall.

Each and every mission requires a certain hero, save for Tihark Orchard, Dasha Vestibule (they just give you Goren as an ally to keep alive), Gate of Madness and Abaddon's Gate. That's 16/20 missions that require you to bring a certain hero.

Chahbek Village - Koss
Jokanur Diggings - Melonni
Blacktide Den - Tahlkora
Consulate Docks - Dunkoro
Venta Cemetery - Koss
Kodonur Crossroads - Zhed Shadowhoof
Rilohn Refuge - Master of Whispers
Pogahn Passage - Margrid the Sly
Moddok Crevice - Dunkoro
Tihark Orchard - Solo
Dzagonur Bastion - Master of Whispers
Dasha Vestibule - None
Grand Court of Sebelkeh - Tahlkora
Jennur's Horde - Koss
Nundu Bay - Melonni
Gate of Desolation - Zhed Shadowhoof
Ruins of Morah - General Morgahn
Gate of Pain - Dunkoro
Gate of Madness - None
Abaddon's Gate - None

Ok so I was apparently wrong about that. But the fact that I couldnt even remember that stuff, just shows how little an impact it had on my playing NF.

I couldnt even remember using all those required Heroes because surprise, surprise id had no major impact on my playability.

It didnt detract from anything, or remove any fun.

Thats my main point to the OP.

Having to use certain heroes in missions, doesnt impact on the gameplay at all.

It improves the storyline and it may force those who dont like to, to use AI, but so what?

What about those of us who dont like using humans because their pains in the a** most of the time. You dont see us complaining when we're forced to in order to do a hard mission or to do the elite missions.

But if you dont like using Heroes, then go play proph or factions where you dont have to. We all knew long before it was released, that Heroes were going to be a main aspect of the game, and then people still complain.

But the OP did also state that half the quests also require a hero, and I know I cant be wrong in saying that is absolute rubbish.

Ok so half the missions require a Hero, but the missions arent all of the game iis about!

Alot more aspects dont rely on Heroes.

aron searle · Dec 04, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

[QUOTE=freekedoutfish]Ok so I was apparently wrong about that. But the fact that I couldnt even remember that stuff, just shows how little an impact it had on my playing NF.

I couldnt even remember using all those required Heroes because surprise, surprise id had no major impact on my playability.[quote]

Which suggests you used them anyway, and didnt have to use them when you wanted to use something else.

its more of a pain when you have to use (ie) koss when youve had no interest in using him, and have kitted out (ie) zhed.

Quote:

Having to use certain heroes in missions, doesnt impact on the gameplay at all.

Having to use certain heroes in missions, does impact on the gameplay.

Quote:

It improves the storyline

Does it?

Quote:

and it may force those who dont like to, to use AI, but so what

And forcing people to play with AI is good?

Quote:

But if you dont like using Heroes, then go play proph or factions where you dont have to. We all knew long before it was released, that Heroes were going to be a main aspect of the game, and then people still complain.

you have a problem with constructive critisism?

Quote:

But the OP did also state that half the quests also require a hero, and I know I cant be wrong in saying that is absolute rubbish.

But like me, you dont acutally know your just guessing.

freekedoutfish · Dec 04, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

"But like me, you dont acutally know your just guessing."

Well ive finised the game and ive only 2 or 3 quests left in ROT, so it is actually a safe bet I do know whether half of the quest require a hero.

They dont!

But then again, I could obviously do what the previous poster did and go on guildwiki or a similar sight, and look up all the quests and find out...

...but im actually at work and have better things to be doing, and thats just sad.

"you have a problem with constructive critisism?"

As for not being able to take criticism. I dont mind criticism. It was the torn in which 'explodemyheart' replied to me I didnt appreciate.

My reply to the OP was very polite in the way I asked whether he had completed the game. I didnt use sarcasm or an arrogant tone.

Or if I did I apologise, but it wasnt the intention.

And yes, ofcourse making us take Heroes into missions improves the storyline.

It keeps us connected to the people we're playing along side and shows us how they develop themselves along with the story.

It helps us sympothise with these characters and it helps us feel their pain and anguise at abaddon and the effect hes having. So we feel more want to move through and help them and kill him.

As I said in a previous reply, would you rather all the required Heroes were replaced by NPCs in missions and quests? as the OP suggested!

I know I wouldnt, because as I already said too; You would have most missions stating "such and such cannot die, or mission fails" and that WOULD impact on the missions. NPCs are stupidly unreliable.

Now the way I see it is this;

Either we do that, and replace required heroes with NPCs who we will have to look after like babies incase they die because we cant res them.

Or we completely remove Koss and Dunkuro and the rest from the storyline.

What would that leave us?

A rather empty story.

So yes!

They do impact on missions, but not in a bad way. They add many aspects to the storyline.

For instance going to save one Heroes village, and then going to save the Garden with Koss. Having to choose which one to rescue or which one first.

How would instances like that work if the Heroes werent there? They are part of the story and we need them. How can you not see that?

The entire primis of NightFall is leaps and bounds ahead of factions and its almost as good as Prophercies.

I just find it hard to understand why people want one of the key aspects of that storyline basically removed.

I think Anet has done a great job personally.

"its more of a pain when you have to use (ie) koss when youve had no interest in using him, and have kitted out (ie) zhed."

Is it really that much hard work to kit a hero out?

You give them the odd sword or sheild which drops during gameplay and your sorted. And we all know swords and sheilds drop allll the time.

If you want to spend more time getting good weapons for alternative heroes, then go ahead.

I did that, and now most of mine have pretty decent greens or purples or golds which I got from previous games or from drops in NF. No effort made at all.

"And forcing people to play with AI is good?"

Your forcing them to use 1 AI player.

A player who you can customise and set its skills.

If their not lvl'd up or working very well, then its no ones fault but the player.

Its not exactly like cutting off a limb is it! As Ive also said, countless other aspects of the game dont need Heroes, which leaves countless times to take guildies and mates for a walk through the game.

But if you want to read my proper, original reply to this thread and not the one I posted after the criticsm, then do that. Dont jump to a conclusion about me without obviously reading what I posted before hand.

I assume you didnt anyway, if you did then sorry.

aron searle · Dec 04, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

"But like me, you dont acutally know your just guessing."

and look up all the quests and find out...

So you dont know then......

Quote:

And yes, ofcourse making us take Heroes into missions improves the storyline.

It keeps us connected to the people we're playing along side and shows us how they develop themselves along with the story.

It helps us sympothise with these characters and it helps us feel their pain and anguise at abaddon and the effect hes having. So we feel more want to move through and help them and kill him.

As I said in a previous reply, would you rather all the required Heroes were replaced by NPCs in missions and quests? as the OP suggested!

You could have all that and not have to have them in your party, just do what alot of missions do and tag them onto the bottom.

Quote:

Is it really that much hard work to kit a hero out?

No, its leveling (see next)

I wanted to use hero 1 2 and 3, i didnt want to use meloni, then i get a mission where i HAVE to use her, and guess what shes level 9 and its a hard area, so i basicly have to flag her to stand back and leave her out the mission, or get into a party with someone who has a non useless meloni.

Quote:

If their not lvl'd up or working very well, then its no ones fault but the player.

So its my fault i havnt taken the time to level them up, see the problem

Im forced to take heros i dont want to use to get the lvl req, or basicly have them stand out the way to stop dieing, seems pointless taking them then.

Quote:

Its not exactly like cutting off a limb is it! As Ive also said, countless other aspects of the game dont need Heroes, which leaves countless times to take guildies and mates for a walk through the game.

No its workable

But just because something works, dosnt mean it cant be improved.

Stemnin · Dec 04, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

...but im actually at work and have better things to be doing, and thats just sad.

Doesn't make much sense..

Anyways, back to topic, I agree with the Op, I finished NF with a new char so the heroes were leveling (almost) at my pace, then I took my tyrian monk to elona, woohoo, koss level 3 and missing (primary quest)! This is just frustrating, /startrant why should I even spend 15 min to 2 days (seems like a big variation there in the replies).. power leveling a hero, can I charge him 2k per level and I pay for the scrolls? /endrant

Cow Tale · Dec 04, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

they should just remove heros from the game, period. too hard to find people to group with. even if the pug i get sucks and we die, at least i have fun. i pay for my cable modem for a reason, to play multiplayer games. people hardly even talk to u now that they have their new hero friends that heil them as their gods and will jump/dance etc at their very command. they made heros so u could always find a group. well it sure works cause the only group ull find now is the damned heros. personally i just flag my heros into large mobs to their doom and then LMAO and piss on their corpses. kinda like how i bought a mini rurik so i could kick him down the stairs!

Evilsod · Dec 04, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith

If you alternate the heroes you use; by the time you leave Kourna they'll all be atleast 18 (all the heroes you have upto that point anyway). If you just want to use the same heroes over and over and leave all the others at low lvl's; that's you're choice.

I don't think your getting this.

For my Ranger, Koss/Morgahn/Melonni have no place as a hero, i stick to Marge, Jin and either Olias or Dunkoro/Tahlkora.

For my Elementalist, Koss/Melonni/Master of Whispers/Tahlkora/Dunkoro have no place as a hero, i stick to Zhed, Sousuke and Morgahn. (does melonni actually have a use anywhere?)

I have NO reason to use them ever. I do not want to 'alternate' heros. The most alternating they get is been switched in to recieve quest rewards. How the hell is been forced to take Morgahn for Ruins of Morah gonna help anyone? I for 1 took my ranger through NF first so i had jack shit in terms of Paragon skills. Not only do i have to take Morgahn, i have to take a completely useless 1 who has no place in the team AT ALL. Sure he could have a use if i had plenty of skills for him and 7 slots open for heros, but i don't. So he's taking a spot a useful hero or a guildy could take.

We don't have to take a Dervish with us to Pug FoW or UW or the Domain of Anguish, so why the hell should we have to take 1 with us on a specific mission or quest because shes vital to the story? Making her wander around as an NPC isn't the trickiest thing in the world to implement.

Quote:

It didnt detract from anything, or remove any fun.

Really? Ever tried doing Grand Court 8 times because your stupid leeroying twats of heros are been helped along by a low level Tahlkora in place of your regular lvl20 Dunkoro who actually has runes? Yeah that removed quite a lot of fun actually.

Quote:

Is it really that much hard work to kit a hero out?

Cost of Elswyths Recurve Bows for my 2 Ranger heros on 1 character. 5k each.
Cost of the 2 Major Vigours i bought them. 4k each.
Cost of the 2 Sup Marksmanships i bought them. 500-1k each.
Thats about 20k setting up 2 heros to make them decent on ONE account.

Thats an average of maybe 10k per hero per character if you buy runes and items. So 30k to set up the 3 heros you WANT to use properly so they're EFFECTIVE.

Quote:

You give them the odd sword or sheild which drops during gameplay and your sorted. And we all know swords and sheilds drop allll the time.

Well it makes him slightly more effective... but he's still lacking runes and a proper weapon/shield. And as we all know Warrior runes ARE NOT CHEAP.

Quote:

If you want to spend more time getting good weapons for alternative heroes, then go ahead.

I don't want to, its that simple. I'd quite happily give my Rangers' Koss an Ice Breaker that i have customised to use for a bit. But i'm not prepared to buy him 1, specially as i might decide to make him a sword warrior later.

Quote:

I did that, and now most of mine have pretty decent greens or purples or golds which I got from previous games or from drops in NF. No effort made at all.

Well good for you... personally i'd rather sell all the crap i get than give it to a hero i'll never use without been forced. To kit a hero out can be quite simple if you prepared for it. But are you carrying around 20 max damage swords now just to give Koss and Goren when you reach them? Or 20 max damage Bows with the type you want?

As has been mentioned earlier... Dunkoro is forced upon you at lvl6(ish) for Consulate Docks... Perhaps you can't get a team/guildy with a lvl20 version to help? He's a useless git. Luckily he has his moments while smiting since he's quite good at been told to put SoJ on before you run in. You don't have a great deal of selection with the heros but theres no harm in at least letting you take some useful ones.

MithranArkanere · Dec 04, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

It's part of the Campaign.

It is true that they should be give to you with you same level, other than that.

All the missions can e made and mastered as they are.

aron searle · Dec 04, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Cost of Elswyths Recurve Bows for my 2 Ranger heros on 1 character. 5k each.
Cost of the 2 Major Vigours i bought them. 4k each.
Cost of the 2 Sup Marksmanships i bought them. 500-1k each.
Thats about 20k setting up 2 heros to make them decent on ONE account.

Thats an average of maybe 10k per hero per character if you buy runes and items. So 30k to set up the 3 heros you WANT to use properly so they're EFFECTIVE.

I agree with all but this, you dont need to spend money to kit them out, its the TIME you have to spend leveling heros you dont want to use, because you want to use other heros.

No you dont NEED to level them, you can do the missions with low level heros, but then all you do is put them at the back and give them a few token skills, what is even the point of taking them then.

mqstout · Dec 04, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I've hated this concept since the inception of it as well.

Bryant Again · Dec 04, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

/unsigned. Not too much of a reason, I just level them up.

|pyro| · Dec 04, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I created my Dervish now and stopped at first mission. I dont like Koss, I dont like any other Hero. I dont wanna have them in my party. I dont want to do missions in Desolation where my hero will get 1 hitted coz I dont want to use him. I wanna henchway it all. It makes me wanna stop playing NF even more than those closed doors in F did.

Sir Mad · Dec 04, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Well yes I agree with the cost of the equipement for every hero for all your chars (something 120 heores in my case). We really should be allowed to craft weapons for them as for PvP chars (and use runes we have unlocked). However, I don't think leveling heroes is that a problem. You're likely to have low level heores for the 1st missions, but they are easy enough. And the heroes required should be level 18-20 for the other missions if you take your non-lvl 20 heroes in your party before you receive a quest reward, and take one or 2 of them in your party when you go to an explorable.

Back on the topic of heroes required in missions. Yeah, I also hate that sometimes, but that's a part of the stoyline. In factions we also had NPCs in our team (Togo, Mhenlo, Danika, etc), but they were added to our team. We were able to have a team of 8 but the downside was if the dude was killed, the mission failed. And I must say compared to that, I like the hero requirement better. At least you don't have to start over of they die.

Crom The Pale · Dec 04, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

I think if we look at all the people with complaints about the Hero's we might find a split between most of the new players and the ones with the previous two chapters.

When i did the consulate docks mission with my new nightfall char my heros were the same lvl but had access to 100+ skills and elites that I have unlocked inthe previous two chapters. They were actually much stronger than my new char and when I brought my Prophicies char over the Heros were quite cappable with the right skill set up.

For people that have not unlocked enough skills and Elites for all the proffesions the Hero's can be a burden, but if you've unlocked enough skills the can run most builds and are no set back to any mission.

As for cutting out one live player, 7 people gives you plenty to talk to and have fun with. It would be a totaly different story if each person had to bring there required hero.

Some free advise for any new player, go to the arenas and gain some Balthazar Faction. Then use it to unlock high lvl skills for your heros, it really makes a huge diffence in there abilities!

ramma77 · Dec 04, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

O.O i can't believe some of you.

Heroes>henches>pugs

If your heroes are getting killed with one hit they must be level 3 or something. I've done nearly everything in NF with heroes and hench and they are awesome

freekedoutfish · Dec 04, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

"So you dont know then......"

Obviously your ignoring the bit where I quite clearly stated that most quest DONT need heroes!

Anyway.

"You could have all that and not have to have them in your party, just do what alot of missions do and tag them onto the bottom."

*roles eyes*

Did you also completely ignore the bit where I stated that one alternative to Heroes is to use NPCs!!!!! Which is where they "tag them onto the bottom." and you then have some guy following you around.

You would honestly rather have an NPC in every single one of the missions and quests instead of the required Hero?

An NPC who, when they died, the mission would fail?

And yes they would make it so the mission failed if they died, because they are part of the storyline.

So you would have just under 20 missions of having to baby sit an NPC and keep them alive?

Instead of taking an Hero, who you can control, tell where to go, set their skills and their agression? and ressurect.

Nightfall has missions and quests where you have to follow an NPC and protect them, and most are flawed and dodgey and frustrating. As they always are when you involved NPCs.

Sorry I just find hard to believe someone who must have played GWs a while, wud make such a suggestion.

"I wanted to use hero 1 2 and 3, i didnt want to use meloni, then i get a mission where i HAVE to use her, and guess what shes level 9 and its a hard area, so i basicly have to flag her to stand back and leave her out the mission, or get into a party with someone who has a non useless meloni."

Set her to non-aggressive! She will stay at the back, then if you have a team of humans (as is the point of the debate here), you will all get agro'd instead of her.

Or lvl her up!!!!!

I admit I entered the game at lvl20 and obviously power-lvld my heroes, so I didnt have any issues with low lvl Heroes when doing missions!

But I find it hard to believe they are that hard to lvl up when doing the game from the start. But I dont know, so I wont comment on that.

But this comes back to using NPCs instead of Heroes too;

Your saying you dont want a pointless Hero there to hang at the back and do nothing.

Yet you want them to replace the hero with an NPC who will most likely attack every mob in the area and get itself killed and end the mission?

Id still rather go with the Hero myself. The person I have control over.

"So its my fault i havnt taken the time to level them up, see the problem "

Well yes!!! You havent really got an counter-argument agains that, because it is your fault if you dont lvl Heroes up, or use them right.

"Im forced to take heros i dont want to use to get the lvl req, or basicly have them stand out the way to stop dieing, seems pointless taking them then."

Your only forced to use ONE hero in these missions. That leaves you 7 spaces. The first few parts of Nightfall are not that hard, that a 7 human team cant manage with one Hero in tore.

But again, if their low level, then set then to non-aggressive and then your remaining human team can take the brunt of it.

Im not trying to have a go at you or anyone here, but your all making very bad excuses as to why you cant use Heroes.

They have options on them for aggression and you can set their skills and their weapons.

If their not working effectively, then its the fault of the user, not Anet or the software.

This is like half of the people I get calling me up at work saying they dont know how to use my software. 9/10 times its because they havent bothered to read the manual or their not using it correctly.

This could be due to Anet not teaching you well enough, or due to you not caring about Heroes. I suspect its the last one. But instead of complaining about a new technology which your given, learn to use it.

I seem to have managed perfectly fine through the entire game with them.

Antheus · Dec 04, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Easy missions require you to take a hero.

Hard missions do not require a hero.

And besides: The level 4 Koss at the docks makes a really nice tank. Much better than most tanks available there. Dunkoro at level 6 is a better healer than most human healers there.

And no, this isn't a random rant about PUGs. But that mission has level 16-20 mobs, with 2 groups, one including a MM, and the only thing that can wipe you there is the elementalist boss.

The low level characters there only look weak. They do just fine. On all characters I've gotten through, I didn't bother leveling any of the heroes. You don't need to.

The reason why so many claim that PUGs suck and heroes are superior, is because Nightfall is really easy. It's too easy. The effects of this can be seen in Domain of Anguish thread discussions on any and all boards.

Addone_Abaddon · Dec 04, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

where do heroes go when you enter a town?